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  • #556747
    MorkilRocks
    • Posts : 873
    • Gelatinous Cube

    Hal and I had a discussion the other day about what new spells Mor’kil should learn. He suggested (WAKKA WAKKA WAKKA) Magic Missle and Shield (I haven’t come up with words for this one yet). Theses spells are great and ultimately, Mor’kil learned them, but I had another idea.

    I wanted to learn Hydraulic push and Shocking grasp. Here is my reasoning behind my choices: The idea is that Mor’kil could launch Hydraulic Push on one round, then Shocking grasp on the next, causing more damage to the victim/bad guy by electrocuting an already wet target. I realize a touch doll has to be made to hit the target with the grasp and since the spell dry has no effect on the caster, i figured it wouldn’t have an effect when wet.

    Hal checked the sacred tome of spells & damage and learned that frying a wet target did no extra damage.

    I find this, well, shocking. With so many specific rules and regulations for each and every spell, I don’t understand why this spell combo does not work.

    Obviously, I am not the wise dice-rolling sage I should be, but there is a reason manufacturers tells you not to make toast while taking a bath.

    Your thoughts?

    Gilbert/Mor’kil

    #629474
    Lockhart
    • Posts : 1293
    • Owlbear

    Water increases conductivity. It doesn’t increase the actual voltage (current?) and the danger of the electricity isn’t magnified.

    As an example. If you were to open up a toaster and stick your finger into the electrical bits and get a shock, it would be the same lethality as if you were sitting in a tub and had a plugged-in toaster tossed in the water with you. The water doesn’t make it more or less dangerous, it just helps conduct the electric death waves from the source into your fragile fragile body.

    That being said, Shocking grasp does say “When delivering the jolt, you gain a +3 bonus on attack rolls if the opponent is wearing metal armor (or is carrying a metal weapon or is made of metal).”

    Now, I dunno if water is quite as conductive as metal is, and of course this is purely me talking with no official rules backing me up, but it might be reasonable to say that, if a target is soaked in water, you get a +3 bonus to your attack roll with Shocking Grasp, as if they were wearing armor.

    #629475
    MorkilRocks
    • Posts : 873
    • Gelatinous Cube

    That makes total sense. And, once again, Lockhart saves the day.

    The other issue I had was the limited range of the actual push. In my head, it should douse the enemy then soak the surrounding floor area for a specific duration. Any enemies in the puddle would then get shocked by proxy once the grasp was cast again. But this might be asking too much… LOL

    Thanks for the clarification.

    g 😀

    #629476
    Dungnmaster001
    • Posts : 215
    • Orc
    MorkilRocks wrote:
    That makes total sense. And, once again, Lockhart saves the day.

    The other issue I had was the limited range of the actual push. In my head, it should douse the enemy then soak the surrounding floor area for a specific duration. Any enemies in the puddle would then get shocked by proxy once the grasp was cast again. But this might be asking too much… LOL

    Thanks for the clarification.

    g 😀

    The spell description says it can soak either a single creature or a single square (5 foot square) so if you use it to push a creature it doesn’t wet the surrounding area, but if you use it to, for example, put out a fire, then it would soak the area. The wording makes it an either/or choice. So sadly shocking a wet target won’t shock any adjacent foes since there’s typically only 1 creature per 5 foot square.

    My personal reasoning for this is that there’s not that much water being used in this spell. I think you’re picturing something along the lines of a fire hose with a constant stream of water, where I see it more as a condensed ball of water striking the target. I imagine it as a very short burst of water where the impact of it is doing the pushing more than the amount of water would normally produce.

    However there’s an upgrade to this spell called Hydrolic Torrent that may do more of what you’re envisioning. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spell … ic-torrent . sadly it’s a level 3 spell which means you won’t get access to it til 6th level. And even then there are better (in my opinion) spells at 3rd level than this.

    #629477
    MorkilRocks
    • Posts : 873
    • Gelatinous Cube
    Quote:
    I think you’re picturing something along the lines of a fire hose with a constant stream of water

    That’s exactly how I pictured it. Kind of like the F.L.U.D.D. device from Super Mario Sunshine.

    #629478
    Snappyapple
    • Posts : 201
    • Orc

    If the goal is to get more effect out of your Shocking Grasp, then True Strike + Shocking Grasp (or any other spells requiring an attack roll) wins by miles. If you’re trying to convince Hal for creative combos, see if you can get Grease + Burning Hands to work. 😛 Otherwise, Color Spray is still there and still fabulous.

    #629479
    MelkiorWhiteblade
    • Posts : 1180
    • Owlbear

    One reason spells don’t interact is generally is a matter of balance. For example, 1d6 damage per level (save for half) is pretty standard, and scales well. You get some variations on this, like flaming sphere with a longer duration and save negates, and then you have save or die spells, which are either higher level and rarer or have easier saves. Area affect spells that are cones do more damage because of proximity needed, etc.

    Now, if level 1 spells can be made more effective by their interactions with other level 1 spells, you’ve now made the spell caster more powerful and hurt balance. The 1st spell already has an effect…and the 2nd spell now has an increased effect, at usually little cost to the caster.

    True strike can be an exception because it has no other effect…you’ve traded a round for an almost guaranteed effect the next round.

    All that said, sometimes a lightning bolt in a lake should just make sense and hurt lots of things. (or in this case a shocking grasp in a puddle) 😀

    #629480
    LightPagoda
    • Posts : 512
    • Gelatinous Cube

    The bardic king in my group’s kingmaker campaign has been absolute death with grease+fire. The group basically cleared out the mite nest by using that combo on the leader and demoralizing the surviving tribe members.

    #629481
    Lockhart
    • Posts : 1293
    • Owlbear

    I am always befuddled where the burning hands+grease combo came from. Grease clearly states that it is nonflammable.

    #629482
    LightPagoda
    • Posts : 512
    • Gelatinous Cube

    tradition? I only ever give it 1 round of d6 damage before it burns out, pretty much equivilant to an alchemist fire without the splash.

    edit: I just checked the pfsrd and didnt see anything about grease not being flamable.

    #629483
    Lockhart
    • Posts : 1293
    • Owlbear
    LightPagoda wrote:
    tradition? I only ever give it 1 round of d6 damage before it burns out, pretty much equivilant to an alchemist fire without the splash.

    edit: I just checked the pfsrd and didnt see anything about grease not being flamable.

    Huh. They changed that from 3.5.

    #629484
    Snappyapple
    • Posts : 201
    • Orc

    Grease being explicitly mentioned to be inflammable? Not that I recall or can check from the 3.5 SRD, 3e SRD, 3.5 PHB, Ask the Sage, or D&D FAQs. Anyway, it’s one of those flavourful thing up to DM adjudication, and I can only suppose interesting combinations following Morkil’s original train of thought.

    #629485
    Lockhart
    • Posts : 1293
    • Owlbear

    It’s funny, cause I coulda sworn I remembered looking it up specifically at one point.

    In any event, while it’s not a ruling on grease itself, there is still 3.5 evidence that regular grease is not very flammable.

    Complete Mage – pg 108, Incendiary Slime

    “This spell functions like grease (PH 237), but the liquid is also highly flammable.”

    Would seem kinda moot to make a flammable version if the regular version was already flammable 😛

    But that’s as far as I can argue that point I’m afraid. I coulda sworn it was in the grease spell description…Clearly my mind is going.

    #629486
    Pencil-Monkey
    • Posts : 5728
    • Mind Flayer
    MorkilRocks wrote:
    Hal and I had a discussion the other day about what new spells Mor’kil should learn. He suggested (WAKKA WAKKA WAKKA) Magic Missle and Shield (I haven’t come up with words for this one yet).

    Hmm… So you need a command word to activate a spell that will protect you against any onslaught, your last line of defense – a lifesaver, if you will. Something that evokes Eastern wisdom and millennia-old teachings in the art of butt-kicking, perhaps?

    You could try crossing your arms in front of you, karate-block style, and shouting: ROCK HARD!, but remember that Asian people have trouble pronouncing ‘R’s, so it will sound more like:

    LOCK HART!!!

    And, in case you ever learn Fly or Levitate, may I recommend that you initiate spell-casting by assuming a Crane stance and crying:

    kungfuhamster.jpg

    UP, UP AND AWAY!

    #629487
    MorkilRocks
    • Posts : 873
    • Gelatinous Cube
    Quote:
    “But that’s as far as I can argue that point I’m afraid. I coulda sworn it was in the grease spell description…Clearly my mind is going.

    5793057809_22e143b7b8.jpg

    Thank for the great information guys! I’m printing this post out (all except Mr. Monkey’s bit) and putting it in my “Mor’kil is Awesome” notebook.

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