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#41 Thing

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 05:34 PM

Well, I guess there are people willing to pay 25.000 gp for a little rough and tumble with the runelord of lust...

If there are people around willing to pay that kind of money, I think we can afford top of the line gear.


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#42 PrestoJeff

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 05:42 PM

Would a true resurrection/wish/miracle also erase the negative levels? Or is that adding insult to injury?
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#43 Chewzter

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 07:49 PM

Would a true resurrection/wish/miracle also erase the negative levels? Or is that adding insult to injury?

Depending on the GM you could use a Wish to erase them I suppose (though you would have to decide on whether to resurrect or to erase the negative levels). A true resurrection wouldn't add any negative levels but wouldn't erase existing ones either as far as I know.


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#44 Thing

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 07:53 PM

d20pfSRD says

"wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from gaining a permanent negative level."

so I am guessing no


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#45 Chewzter

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 08:02 PM

d20pfSRD says

"wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from gaining a permanent negative level."

so I am guessing no

I think that is as in "as part of an resurrection-wish" isn't it? If you were to make a wish for the negative levels and use true resurrection, that might work (50.000gp and finding a cleric and wizard being necessary of course).


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#46 Thing

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 08:08 PM

I think that is as in "as part of an resurrection-wish" isn't it? If you were to make a wish for the negative levels and use true resurrection, that might work (50.000gp and finding a cleric and wizard being necessary of course).

True, although Wish is way more expensive than the restoration spells it would cost to remove the negative levels. It would be faster than the weeks time waiting between castings of restoration.

 

 


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#47 PrestoJeff

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 08:53 PM

It looks to me from the SRD that two Restorations or one Greater Restoration would at least get rid of the permanent negative levels. That's only 2x1,000 gp and two weeks time versus 5,000 gp one-time.

 

True Resurrection also removes permanent negative levels, but whether Lockheart would allow Misaki's soul to reinhabit her old body is unclear.  It would also take 25,000 gp in spell components alone, not to mention finding and convincing someone who can cast 9th level spells....

 

That's a really, really nasty trap.  Too nasty for "book 2 of 7" IMO.


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#48 Thing

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 09:02 PM

I think its more nasty the more attached you are to your starting characters race/gender, although the 2 negative levels at the start of a dungeon are a bit  debilitating.

 

Oddly negative levels are one of the things I was worried about with us venturing away from  civilization and access to clerics for higher, although I was thinking more in terms of undead threats.  I briefly considered trying to get a scroll of restoration before we left.


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#49 Lockhart

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 09:15 PM

It looks to me from the SRD that two Restorations or one Greater Restoration would at least get rid of the permanent negative levels. That's only 2x1,000 gp and two weeks time versus 5,000 gp one-time.

 

True Resurrection also removes permanent negative levels, but whether Lockheart would allow Misaki's soul to reinhabit her old body is unclear.  It would also take 25,000 gp in spell components alone, not to mention finding and convincing someone who can cast 9th level spells....

 

That's a really, really nasty trap.  Too nasty for "book 2 of 7" IMO.

 

True ressurection is specifically called out as something that could work (that being said, she would have to be dead).

 

Also, I disagree that it is a nasty trap or Too nasty. To me, it's a wonderful trap.

 

1. It's completely optional and avoidable. The party can just leave the jewelry (which, after you factor in the costs of two restorations, isn't that much of a profit) and continue onwards and the story of the adventure is no less richer for it.

 

2. It gives a meaningful penalty. When parties are able to stock up on wands of CLW and use them as candy, damage traps don't have much of a bite. This one gives a penalty that will either be an inconviniance (but not necessarily outright debilitating to a character) for the dungeon, or use resources and time heading back to town to deal with it.

 

3. The death spell is Phantasmal killer, therefore it requires two failed saves of different types to work.

 

4. When all is said and done, the 'hurt' victim is gets a pretty big mechanical bonus. Thassilon humans get a +2 stat bonus to EVERY stat, in addition to the regular human racial abilities. These bonuses alone will usually make those two negative levels function as a single negative level for the most part.

 

5. Falling to the trap activates a whole 'nother way to approach and work through the dungeon. It adds to the story in a fairly huge way.

 

That being said, players can be very attached to their original concepts, and not necessarily wish to have such flavor and physical changes happen to their character. In this way, it is a bit of a tricky thing. However, to other players, this might be one of the best things that has every happened to them, and incrediably cool.

 

Actually...Now that I think of it... Jade Regent might be the only game where I haven't (yet) done some sort've extreme change to a PC. Tomb of Haggemoth has the blessing of the dwarven god at the end of it, Dragon's Delve had a Doppleganger literally replace a party member permanently (and then there was the helmet...), Shattered Star has this. It appears I am a mean, mean GM for letting players just have their characters. :P


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#50 Thing

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 09:27 PM

Yeah, I can't call the trap too harsh, with negative levels being a bit less debilitating in pathfinder.  

 

I think all the way back from 1st generation of D&D with cursed girdles and such, I have just gotten used to the idea of DMs and adventures dropping changes on characters so I wouldn't have minded that aspect of the trap, but that's me.


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#51 Chewzter

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 09:43 PM

I didn't think of it as harsh either. All things considered, it's a pretty avoidable (and kind of obvious) trap. Of course with some bad luck you might die to it, but as Lockhart said you get a pretty good bonus in your new body.

Also consider that, if avoided, the "trap" is pretty much a free resurrection for the rest of the adventure path.


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#52 Lockhart

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 09:52 PM

Also consider that, if avoided, the "trap" is pretty much a free resurrection for the rest of the adventure path.

 

This is true, however that is actually the one thing that might be nasty about the trap if a GM remembers it. If you die in some distant location aside from the Lady's Light, waking up naked with no gear in a distant corner of Varisia isn't ideal, and you're not likely to be reunited with your party in a timely fashion unless someone has teleport and everyone is fully aware of the link.


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#53 Chewzter

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 10:02 PM

This is true, however that is actually the one thing that might be nasty about the trap if a GM remembers it. If you die in some distant location aside from the Lady's Light, waking up naked with no gear in a distant corner of Varisia isn't ideal, and you're not likely to be reunited with your party in a timely fashion unless someone has teleport and everyone is fully aware of the link.

Oh yeah... But then again, if someone dies later, he's going to be on a level he can probably defend himself for a few days. As for being seperated from the party, the witch on the island close to the lady's light might resolve that. In the very least she would be able to cast message, should the PC have nothing along those lines. Would be a terrible shame to have the rest try to resurrect the deceased(?) party member and have it fizzle :P


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#54 PrestoJeff

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 10:44 PM

Since I'm only listening to the adventure and haven't read it, is there any warning that this kind of trap might exist? From a story perspective, is this a trap that Sorshen put in place thousands of years ago (might be misremembering the time scale)?

 

I think I'd be less irked if there was some rationale for the trap to be there. Are there any stories about Sorshen being into creating clones or linked with the Phantasmal Killer spell?  She's the embodiment of lust, right?  Why would she be into magical body-swap traps? Is the party supposed to be wondering why there's apparently a corpse of Sorshen and avoid it because "that's not something Sorshen would do/have done, it must be a trap"?


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#55 Lockhart

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 11:03 PM

Since I'm only listening to the adventure and haven't read it, is there any warning that this kind of trap might exist? From a story perspective, is this a trap that Sorshen put in place thousands of years ago (might be misremembering the time scale)?

 

I think I'd be less irked if there was some rationale for the trap to be there. Are there any stories about Sorshen being into creating clones or linked with the Phantasmal Killer spell?  She's the embodiment of lust, right?  Why would she be into magical body-swap traps? Is the party supposed to be wondering why there's apparently a corpse of Sorshen and avoid it because "that's not something Sorshen would do/have done, it must be a trap"?

Hmm, thought I reavealed that somewhere in the game.

 

It is thousands of years old, which is why it's degraded and turned into something different instead of just being a death spell. It's intermingled with the clone spell.

 

It's also important to note that the body isn't a corpse, it's a clone spell (which I believe Thing rolled the correct spellcraft check for), and signifies that Sorshen is still alive somewhere, and could return from this body if she were to die. Considering the back-stabbing nature of runelords, it is well within their nature to have a few contingencies against death (Sorshen was only 1 of two original Runelords who kept their mantle until the fall of Thassilon, she was particularly good at this) Hence, it is something worth being protected, wouldn't want people to just stab all your clones and then try to assassinate you.

 

Also, a perception check from somebody able to detect magical traps (or some cautious thinking and a detect magic spell) Will both reveal the presence of the trap. As it is, just opening the sarcophagus is fine, it's attempting to remove the jewlery or damage the clone which trigger the trap, and I think both of those qualify as things adventurers should be wary of for traps.


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#56 Chewzter

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 11:08 PM

I agree, there are plenty of ways to notice a trap there. Just having a rogue being one, perception/detect magic and of course knowing of the clone spell and having read harry potter (horcruxes anyone?).


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#57 PrestoJeff

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 11:22 PM

Okay, with the extra background, the clone "contingency" makes sense, except for why is it "in plain sight"?  Surely the last thing Sorshen would want is that clone being found by a rival (or an adventurer) and destroyed? And why drape the clone in goodies?  Doesn't that just tempt any intruder into examining further?

 

I have no knowledge at all of the background other than what's been spoken in-game (and what I remember of said utterances). I thought the runelords were all dead, long ago?


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#58 Lockhart

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 11:40 PM

The runelords all disappeared long ago. They are proving to be increasingly not dead, which is the reason for the seriousness of the entire adventure, putting the Sihedron together to have a powerful thassilon defense (In universe, two Runelords have already arisen).

 

It's important to keep in mind that in Thassilon times, this was an active facility in the heart of Sorshen's territory. If an enemy had gotten to the coffin, it'd be a serious security breach.

 

Also, if you're gonna have a clone hanging around, and you consider yourself the most beautiful person ever, of course you're gonna have show it off and dress it up and put jewelry on it and such.

 

Also also, it's not like Sorshen would just have the one and only clone around.

 

Just saying, it's perfectly logical and developed, and high knowledge checks (or research back at the manor) can reveal a lot of this in game, or some spell theory and some logic and such. In any event, Players should be suspicious and expect a trap when they have such loot seemingly offered on a silver platter in an ancient and active dungeon, and they have only themselves to blame if they push their luck and dont like the results. :P


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#59 smithmeg

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 11:42 PM

The people saying the stat increases make up (partly) for the negative levels are missing something. The character already had stat bonuses for their old body, and if they were built sensibly to use these for their primary functions they take the full -2 hit on those things. So, for example the rogue probably doesn't care that she's smarter and stronger and prettier, cause her dex is unchanged, and she's therefore 10% worse at doing all the things that make her a rogue.
It seems a very mean trap to me.
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#60 Lockhart

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 11:50 PM

The people saying the stat increases make up (partly) for the negative levels are missing something. The character already had stat bonuses for their old body, and if they were built sensibly to use these for their primary functions they take the full -2 hit on those things. So, for example the rogue probably doesn't care that she's smarter and stronger and prettier, cause her dex is unchanged, and she's therefore 10% worse at doing all the things that make her a rogue.
It seems a very mean trap to me.

 

While I agree it is a difficulty, I wouldn't say mean. As you said, a sensibly built character will already have been built to be good at what they're supposed to be good at. This means that, typically, even with a -2 penalty the character will still be competant at what they normally do. I mean, Misaki's perception was a +20, and she went down to a +18. She was still a +18. The real mean thing is negatives to areas where a character is already weak. Going from a +3 will save to a +1 will hurt more than going from a +8 reflex to a +2. In this case, those weaknesses will be shored up, sometimes doubly if a character went from a -2 racial mod to a +2 racial mod.


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