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#21 Hal

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Posted 18 March 2006 - 11:23 AM

Your strength lies in objective assessment and comments my dearest :D

Hal :hal:
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#22 Phneri

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Posted 18 March 2006 - 07:30 PM

I personally support the idea of making firearms equally as able to become "legendary" or "special" weapons as much as bladed or bludgeoning weapons. Too often this is poo-pooed because of the natural inclination of roleplayers to favour a "magic sword", but in a post apocalyptic situation I see no reason why there can't be a "magic gun" in the way that the Gunslinger Series portrays the way in which the revolver becomes an extension of the self of Roland in a very mystic way - not in the "Action movie hero being fantastic with guns" way. You have a post-apocalyptic setting? Use that - make certain technology by virtue of its function take on a different place in society.

Some games have Blademasters, I say... why no Gunmasters?


The thing about that, though, is that Roland's guns were special because they were very well made (masterwork, I'd go with) and firearms had become exceedingly rare in his world. As the books advanced, Roland demonstrated that he was equally proficient with nearly anything that could go 'bang,' so even in that case it wasn't necessarily the guns being Excaliburesque as much as Roland being that freakin' good.

I like the idea of an excellently-made weapon granting various bonuses, but there's just something odd about a magically-endowed handgun becoming a howitzer in the same manner some very high-end melee weapons can do in various systems. A bow can work differently as the person using it has some influence on the power involved, therefore something that magically endows them with superhuman strength would allow them to turn that bow into a railgun. However, beyond accuracy there's not a long in that range you can do with a handgun/rifle/etc.

I WOULD like to see a ranged weapons master be able to bypass insane armor, or given the capability to do massive damage (or automatic criticals) with their weapon, but I think the focus of that power should remain in the character, not the gun itself. Given that 'gunslinger' character bonuses for sticking with a particular weapon and mastering it as an extension of their arm would be a good thing, but I would say that master should be able to pick up a different weapon and still retain 90% of his/her abilities.
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#23 EegahInc

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Posted 18 March 2006 - 09:19 PM

Still mulling over N-Kun's suggestion of no classes. There's something about that I kind of like and strikes me as realistic. Like how all of the regulars on the forum here seem to be multi-talented no matter their official job title.

Is there a way to apply experience points to individual skills rather than to the whole character? How much trouble would it be to keep track of successful actions? I guess what I'm thinking of is that a player would keep record of each successful use of a skill, like HEAL for example. After a pre-determined number of successes, the player would get to add a point to that skill. That way, the PC still levels up, but only for the things he's actually done.
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#24 Thing

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Posted 18 March 2006 - 09:35 PM

Is there a way to apply experience points to individual skills rather than to the whole character? How much trouble would it be to keep track of successful actions? I guess what I'm thinking of is that a player would keep record of each successful use of a skill, like HEAL for example. After a pre-determined number of successes, the player would get to add a point to that skill. That way, the PC still levels up, but only for the things he's actually done.


Call of cthulhu does that a bit, as does few versions of Traveller.

It works well if the characters don't have tons of skills each.
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#25 riddles

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 06:32 AM

That's also how Runquest does it too (same system as CoC so that makes sense I guess). You have a box by the skill, use it successfully and you tick the box. At the end of the session, you role to see if you improve your skill.

If you don't want magic to be a big part of what's going on, there's always alien tech or psi to do healing etc. Basically, migic, but limited in those areas we want.

Finally, another idea for resolving stuff is use cards, either playing or tarot. I think Deadlands had an option for this? And didn't Mage for using Tarot?

I'm a bit like Lindsay and Hal in that I love crit tables (and Rolemaster's best of all!), but I'm not sure we really want to write our own.

Finally, I was reading my copy of the basic rules for the Morrow Project (which has LOTS of rules for radiation poisioning, where the primary targets are in North America and lots of other fun stuff) and it Some useful sets of percentages for body parts:

Torso 38%
Leg (each) 19%
Thigh 8%
Calf 5%
Foot 4%
Hip Joint 1%
Knee 1%
Ankle 1%
Arm (each) 9%
Upper 2%
Lower 2%
Shoulder Joint, Hand, Elbow and wrist 1%
Head 6%

May be useful as a starter for missle location hits (melee would need the arms to have alot more chance to be hit, as you put your arms in the way of things attacking you).
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#26 Lindsay

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 06:41 AM

The crit table idea could be simplified, couldnt it?
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#27 riddles

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 06:47 AM

The crit table idea could be simplified, couldnt it?


Well, there are simpler ones out there (i.e. not 1 for every weapon/way of doing things like rolemaster has). I seem to remember that the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles rpg had an OK one with just 20 entries.

Might be nice to have one for every major hit location, with maybe different results depending on what sort of weapon was used (different with a stab to a slash to a crush).

Could then get away with less items needed per "table".
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#28 Dragonkin

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 07:02 AM

That's also how Runquest does it too (same system as CoC so that makes sense I guess). You have a box by the skill, use it successfully and you tick the box. At the end of the session, you role to see if you improve your skill.


The Swedish system (can't remember what system it was originally based on, but it's evolved during quite a few versions anyway) that I've played for most of my roleplaying career has "classes", in that you pick a class, which determines your selection of starting skills and possibly a starting ability (though it's frequently overridden by "if your character has a good reason to have learned skill X, you may pick that), and there are no levels. Rather, experience works as follows: Whenever you successfully use a skill for the first time in a day (ie after sleeping for at least eight hours), that skill gains an experience point. A critical success will get you 1d4 or 1d3+1 (and optionally one point every time you roll a crit after that, if you haven't slept yet), and the skill then costs a certain number of points to increase, depending on its current level and difficulty to learn) - similarly, training will also give this kind of 'skill XP'. This also means that getting a skill increased at the higher end of the spectrum takes longer, as it's more expensive at that point.
I'm specifically avoiding quoting any actual numbers here, partially because the system isn't perfect and partially because it's something that should be discussed and playtested.

Finally, another idea for resolving stuff is use cards, either playing or tarot. I think Deadlands had an option for this? And didn't Mage for using Tarot?


Deadlands does indeed use cards and poker hands for many things (been reading up on it recently, as I might be GM'ing for the first time in over ten years, and Deadlands seemed like a nice system to try since I've played it a few times and the rest of the group haven't), such as initiative and magic. For skill rolls it uses open-ended dice and target numbers (attributes/characteristics are dice type ranging from d4 to d12 for natural things, and skill levels will be number of dice - so a deftness (dexterity of the hand, hand-eye coordination, etc) of d10 and a shootiin': pistol skill of 3 means you roll 3d10, and pick the highest. If you roll an 'ace' (the highest possible on the die, so a 10 on a d10, 6 on a d6, etc), you roll again and add, meaning that even if you have a d4, you can still pass a fair skill roll (Target Number 5), you're just less likely to.
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#29 EegahInc

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 07:20 AM

That's also how Runquest does it too (same system as CoC so that makes sense I guess). You have a box by the skill, use it successfully and you tick the box. At the end of the session, you role to see if you improve your skill.


Well, what if you had 6 to 10 basic stats as usual, and then had a bunch of skills sub-categorized under each Stat. Sort of like the d20 system, but arranged by Stat instead of alphabetical order. Then after completing a certain number of skills under each Stat group sucessfully, you get to advance that Stat a point. Of course, you'd want it to take a lot of successful skill throws to advance so the PCs don't advance to godlike anytime soon.

I'm just trying to think of a way to attach importance to all skills instead of just blowing somethings head off. I've played relatively few systems compared to the rest of you, so I'm not sure what exists out there that works best in this way. I suppose another simple way to do it is just script the adventures in a way that isn't so battle heavy. I'd think in a PA setting there's bound to be much more dangers than just battle-related ones.

Another rambling post, but I'm learning here as well as suggesting. One last thing along these lines. Another way to encourage roleplaying might be to take a cue from D&D online and base XP on quest completion rather than overcoming individual challenges. I know that's the exact opposite from everything else I just posted, but it's another possiblity.
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#30 artemiswolfang

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 12:19 PM

Personally, as someone who has played a lot of video games and knows a bit about some role-playing games, I'd like to put in my two cents.

Levels should not be slogging. It loses appeal quickly when you have to do twenty fights against insane monsters just to reach your first level-up.

White Wolf seems to have a fair system of ranks, as does D&D. D&D seems a bit simpler, though, in my opinion. I do think that there should be different skills, but perhaps not for basic skills: Say everyone is allowed to have three skills in the 15-30% range, or something like that, unless there are certain other circumstances, such as superhuman-ness?

I do like the idea of classes a la Warhammer - You can pick from a certain range, and then you get to pick within that range. But everyone should be allowed certain skills: Heal, Climb, etc.

I'm not sure what kind of dice-rolling is involved in White Wolf (Lindsay, a recording, please? :D), or if a more D&D approach to rolling would work best - most of you have more experience with that sort of thing.

We also should make it fairly simple (especially character creation), something you can pick up fairly quickly.

Just some thoughts.
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#31 N-kun

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 05:45 PM

with a classless system you would never "level up" you would be given xp to spend on buying more stuff with.

I dislike crit tables immensily, the number of times you roll in the same section on the table so you get repeated, "you hit them in the elbow, they say ow" Id rather a gun did a set dice (ie 2d6 or a d10) of damage ala d20, deadlands etc.
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#32 riddles

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 03:14 AM

Don't look at this thread then Neil!

I only started it 'cos Lindsay likes them, honest! :)
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#33 SleepingDemon

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 02:55 PM

Even though some know me for appreciating odd systems (A Marvellous Christmas, anyone?) I principally enjoy games where the system helps reinforce the intended style.

So what are we talking here? "Post-Apocalyptic" makes me think harsh & gritty- usually a dry, barren wilderness with rains of ash and storms of dust, where the survivors have little hope of rectifying the global damage, and band together to eke out a meagre existence in this brave new world.

Or am I wrong? Did people want to go more Toxic Crusaders with this? Have a bit of off-the-wall mutants and radioactive/nanotech-powered magics?

Each goes a different way. In a harsh setting, the idea of a magic gun is moot- a gun is magical, able to smite someone down with the fire of dragons, or some such. Even if guns are in plentiful supply, ammunition tends to be made along old principles and if you can get some they're as likely to breach the barrel as to projecting lead at fatal velocities. As a contrast we have the mad max/waterworld idea that guns are horded by the Bad Guys™ and pretty much eschewed by most other folk. As for a magic-oriented post-apocalyptic setting, well, you know what they say about advanced science and magic...

Just a few ideas to get people thinking... I prefer the harsher setting, and have some choice system ideas if such was the case.

Robin
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#34 Thing

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 03:23 PM

Good point, the overall feel of the "world" and the types of Adventures characters a likely to go on should probably be sketched out before too many rule mechanics should be decided on.
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#35 Salubrai

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 06:22 PM

I'm more on the page of a post-apocalyptic world being a gritty world rather than a toxic-crusader one. Not saying there can't be the occasional fantastic element, but when I said the idea of there being "magic" guns, I meant more in the vein of them being a weapon rather than a sword from birth that a certain class might train with. And in doing so, make them semi-mythical more from their training than their actual weapon. Having guns become an object of awe that people don't really understand - though, I think - is the wrong direction. I don't think people should be totally unaware of technology, seeing as how very few apocalypses could wipe the world of the kind of tech necessary to make the "end of the world" that people survive one that really matters. :D They should be a rare and valued weapon, but not one that people can't grasp.
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#36 riddles

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 03:47 AM

OK.

I think we need to make a decision here. (no hope then!)

Either
1. The apocalypse is man made (war, plague, famine, out of oil etc).
Gritty, day to day survival, ammo is scarce, food is almost non existant (makes Mad Max look like a picnic).
No aliens, no psi, lots of grunge.

Or
2. The apolcalypse is alien made (sleeper powers, magic returns, stripmining, war of the worlds, enslavement etc)
Game plays alot more "fantasy", more exploring the changed Earth etc.
Aliens, changed animals/humans, psi/magic, the grunge could eat you or give you strange powers or just make you dirty.

Now I know I've made the choice pretty black and white and there will be lots of shading of grey coming in, but I think at least we'll be able to then make decisions about systems etc. from this.

Of the two choices, my vote is for 2, as I play rpgs to escape from a cr*ppy world, not to create one, but I'm aware my view is a leetle extreme! :)
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#37 EegahInc

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 09:34 AM

I smell a poll coming.
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#38 Lindsay

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 09:39 AM

Robin posted....*faints*
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#39 N-kun

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 01:17 PM

I vote 1 cause i like gritty
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#40 JabberwockySR

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 02:34 PM

I vote 1 if we include mutations. Just doing d20 postmodern doesn't appeal as much.
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