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Temple of Time Session 06


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#21 Lockhart

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:22 AM

I won't argue that there are certainly benefits, but there are also costs. And I think those costs are fine.


Players lose action economy: As a GM. I know my minions are meant to die, the question is how much of an obstacle and resource drain they can be. Fighters and rogues that constantly use potions every other turn are basically giving a creature that would've died on the first strike free attacks on them, which let's me do more damage to the players.
Players are effectively spending money each combat: if a player goes through 2-3 potions a combat, I'm happy enough that they're spending 100+ gp a combat. Early levels, it won't take them long to run out of money, and later levels they won't have the money saved for bigger magic items. Let's see how they fair when their saves are lower than average because they spent money on potions instead of cloaks of resistence.
Lastly: Whatever tactics players use, a GM can use too, and typically execute better than the players.
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#22 bodhranist

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 11:03 AM

The rogue wouldn't have any trouble getting a shield spell in the first place. A few ranks in Use Magic Device does the trick. Not quite as foolproof as a potion at first, but cheaper. The fighter does get the benefit of a shield plus a two handed weapon, but that's a spell slot the mage isn't using for color spray, sleep, grease, or some other spell that might well pretty much shut down the combat before it starts.
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#23 MelkiorWhiteblade

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 11:32 AM

That's true, there are other options. But the mage doesn't need to use a slot for a potion made three days before...

And yes, rogue probably isn't the best example with use magic device. But potions can't fail...well, they can if you fail your concentration check during an attack of opportunity, so there is that.

But I think we're talking about using reasonable tactics as well. You don't use the true strike potion in the middle of combat against goblins. You drink it as the ogre is charging in, so that on your first attack you get the benefit. Because what is the other option in that case? Wait? Maybe set against a charge?

Or you drink the shield potion instead of carrying around that brooch of shielding just in case? 25 gp vs 1,500?
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#24 bodhranist

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 04:21 PM

I'm not actually seeing that shield or true strike potions are rules legit. The infusion discovery lets extracts be used by folks other than the alchemist, but it doesn't explicitly change the range to anything other than personal, so I'd think they're not legal to be made into anything potion-like besides an infused extract that costs a daily spell slot.
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#25 MelkiorWhiteblade

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 05:06 PM

I'm not actually seeing that shield or true strike potions are rules legit.


They aren't, that was my point. Lockhart offered up in game potions of shield as being allowed, which was incorrect.
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#26 Thing

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 05:12 PM

I'm not actually seeing that shield or true strike potions are rules legit.


They aren't, that was my point. Lockhart offered up in game potions of shield as being allowed, which was incorrect.


I thought the rule on potions was

It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures or objects.


I would think that personal range spells, being 1 person would fall into that classification
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#27 Hal

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 05:12 PM

This really makes no sense to me. I guess it is something to do with play balance rather than common sense.

You would think that if any spell could be a potion then the Personal range spells would be the first on that list as they affect the person drinking the potion.

Anyone have any insight into why this restriction is in place?

Hal :hal:
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#28 bodhranist

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 06:15 PM

I thought the rule on potions was

It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures or objects.


I would think that personal range spells, being 1 person would fall into that classification


Spells like shield have "Target you", which the developers have clarified shouldn't be interpreted as the same as"Target n creature(s), which is what you need to be made into a potion.

It is to do with play balance. Common sense-wise, I've justified it as being a spell that's complicated enough for its level that a spellcaster isn't familiar enough with anyone besides themself to cast it on and have it work.

For example, with mirror image (which is "Target you"), I'd say it was too hard to keep track of where someone else was to keep the illusions updated properly, but its easier to have a clear idea of where you are and what's going on with you.
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#29 Thing

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 06:27 PM

Spells like shield have "Target you", which the developers have clarified shouldn't be interpreted as the same as"Target n creature(s), which is what you need to be made into a potion.

I don't doubt it, but it seem odd that they haven't specified that in the errata and clarifications/sedebars on the pfsrd.

I can see in game flavour terms, if you are casting the spell into the brewed potion ingredients, so the potion can hold the spell as an intermediary between caster and target, that the spell would have to be target-able. Casting a target Self spell and the spell would simply go into the caster as usually then the potion.
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#30 bodhranist

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 11:36 PM

I don't doubt it, but it seem odd that they haven't specified that in the errata and clarifications/sedebars on the pfsrd.

I can see in game flavour terms, if you are casting the spell into the brewed potion ingredients, so the potion can hold the spell as an intermediary between caster and target, that the spell would have to be target-able. Casting a target Self spell and the spell would simply go into the caster as usually then the potion.


That's another good way of thinking about it. They didn't errata it because it's already in there, just tucked away in the Magic Item Creation section of the pfsrd or page 551 of the core book.

The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.


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#31 Thing

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 05:07 AM

The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.

Wow, pretty easy to miss that one line and its a fairly important distinction. Must be why they allow some of the low level, personal only spells to provide a bigger bonus than the ones that can be cast on others.
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#32 bodhranist

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:22 AM

The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.

Wow, pretty easy to miss that one line and its a fairly important distinction. Must be why they allow some of the low level, personal only spells to provide a bigger bonus than the ones that can be cast on others.


Yeah, I like Pathfinder, but they do like to hide rules away. A lot of personal-only spells are a bit more useful than other same-level spells. But It wasn't a unanimous designer opinion. Monte Cook was all for potions of shield, or even magic missile or summon monster (which I imagine would be in spherical bottles: red on top and white on the bottom, with a little metal disc on the side).
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#33 MelkiorWhiteblade

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 12:10 PM

It's hidden in 3.5 as well. The online versions could do a better job of referencing hidden gems like that one, because it's not the first time I've heard about it.

I love the idea of a summon monster potion in certain campaigns, but I also think it's a little bit too high magic for most settings. :cthulhu:
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#34 Lindsay

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 01:06 PM

Rules are dull, and lead to Bleaching.. Kixy, therefore, will not be following no stinkin' rules

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#35 Guest__*

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 11:48 PM

Still on the previous session but looking ahead down my list of games to listen to I see this one is nearly five and a half hours!

Good work people! :)
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#36 Guest__*

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Posted 04 September 2012 - 11:47 PM

Perhaps it shouldn't be surprising in hindsight that a 5 1/2 hour session introduced the term "bio-break" to the site! :)

Fun stuff kids. I've only got two hours to go on this one!
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