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A new direction for the Fashionistas


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#41 Ieqo

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 10:10 AM

You do realize that, out of everything you typed, I focused on this:

A semi gets no more development...


To which I say:

ONLY IF YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!

That is all.

G :D


Oh why I even bother? Clearly Gilbert will be spending all his development points buying ranks of "Locate Secret Opening". :)
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#42 MorkilRocks

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 10:26 AM

Clearly Gilbert will be spending all his development points buying ranks of "Locate Secret Opening". :)


Nah, I won't need that. I just assume that all secret openings are in the rear.

G :D
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#43 BigJackBrass

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 11:04 AM

Clearly Gilbert will be spending all his development points buying ranks of "Locate Secret Opening". :)


Nah, I won't need that. I just assume that all secret openings are in the rear.

G :D

It's a fundamental skill, you know :)
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#44 MorkilRocks

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 11:10 AM

It's a fundamental skill, you know :)


Yeeeeeeeears of training and work in the field. :wink:

G :D
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#45 MorkilRocks

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 03:51 PM

When I was talking to Hal about what I wanted to be in Rolemaster, I made the joke that I wanted to be an assassin, but he said assassins are not good and wouldn't work within a "good" campaign.

I have a few questions.

Is it possible to be a good assassin ?

Is it possible to play an assassin that cast's spells?

Is it possible to play Rolemaster without an alignment (Does RM have an alignment system?)?

Do you think an assassin/ spell-caster would work within a group dynamic?

I really do think RPG's can be fun but I am so sick and tired of being herded in a direction. Why can't each of us (Hal, Lindsay and Gil) play what we want regardless of what is "supposed" to be?

I get things like leveling up and race and class, but why can't a diverse group of adventurers work together, even if they have different agendas and goals?

G :?
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#46 Thing

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 04:17 PM

A lot of people have played with the idea of a good assassin, but in most typical ethos killing people for money is considered a mark in the not good column or at best a-moral, and it is hard to get around that idea and still have an assassin.

Now an ex-assassin is easier to justify in most systems, but utilizing the core skills and killing individuals in efficient manners with as little threat or exposure to yourself as possible is often thought of as not fair play.
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#47 PrestoJeff

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 04:18 PM

How about a bounty hunter?
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#48 Lockhart

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 04:28 PM

This post is going to be done under the assumption that Assassin = Person who kills for money.

On being a 'good' assassin: Not really. Even if you onpy choose to kill evil targets the fact remains that you're only willing to do so if you get paid. At the very best neutral. If you just kill evil folk, you could maybe be a bit of a grimdark good, but tue monetary concern needs to leave the picture. Its now more of a case of you truly believing that there is some evil that can only be reproved by killing someone.

On an assassin/spellcaster working in a group dynamic: Yes and No. It depends on the group. Now, Hal has said that he wants the group to be 'good'. As game master he is allowed to set the tone of the game and party composition, and veto something that doesn't seem to fit, so that a game isnt bogged down by party disagreement. As discussed above, it's tricky to put assassin into that 'good' category. If Hal and Lindsay play a good character as put forward by the tone, those character's are likely gonna find themselves as odds with the assassin a fair bit. The characters should want to travel together, and if two people disagree with murdering someone for a payday, they're not likely to travel with someone who thinks that sounds like a good career. There is also the thing were an assassin is, well, a bit of a solo job. Unless it's a party of assassins, it doesnt work as the best character trope.

While there can be different reasons for a goal or agenda, it is rather important that, generally, all the characters in a group share the same major goal. Let's take the example of a party trying to take down Evil Guy A. Player 1 wants to do it for the freedom of the people. Playet 2 is doing it to avange his destroyed village. Player 3 is doing it to prove that he is the strongest warrior. Player 4 is doing it so that he can claim a piece of the treasury. Different reasons, same goal. If you want to overthrow Evil Guy A, you're not gonna be buddies with someone who wants to join up with Evil Guy A..
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#49 Ieqo

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 06:51 PM

Is it possible to play an assassin that cast's spells?


In Pathfinder, yes. In Rolemaster there is a semi-spellusing class called the "Nightblade" that, while suffering from all the above-mentioned limitations of semi-spellusers, can be fairly awesome.

Is it possible to play Rolemaster without an alignment (Does RM have an alignment system?)?


RM does not have an alignment system per se though the assumption is there that certain actions (human sacrifice, summoning demons, creating armies of zombies, etc.) are evil, and thus subject to various game-mechanic things.

Do you think an assassin/ spell-caster would work within a group dynamic?

Depends entirely on the group and the story being told.


I really do think RPG's can be fun but I am so sick and tired of being herded in a direction. Why can't each of us (Hal, Lindsay and Gil) play what we want regardless of what is "supposed" to be?
I get things like leveling up and race and class, but why can't a diverse group of adventurers work together, even if they have different agendas and goals?


Again, depends on the story. So far you've been playing a prewritten adventure that assumes the players are going to be interested in saving the world. In a story written for the group, anything goes, though in general having a group that is too diverse (aka a "freakshow" group) is a recipe for the whole thing breaking down into disruptive party infighting (which the players will justify as "good roleplaying"--sometimes even correctly). Yes of course everyone at your table is too mature for that kind of shenanigans. Every table thinks they are too mature for that kind of shenanigans. Yet it nearly always happens.

Why this happens ranges from simple immaturity ("I want more attention, so I'm going to disrupt the group and the game-world so that I get it.") to slavish adherence to a character's persona (To quote Joanna in Dorkness Rising, "I'm lawful-good. Am I obligated to kill him for that?"), but in all cases the effect is the same: it turns the game into a competitive endeavor rather than a cooperative one. That's actually a perfectly valid playstyle for a number of groups, but many of us are of the opinion that real life is competitive enough; when we seek to escape it for a few hours each week, let's try for that mission-oriented teamwork-ideal that doesn't really exist outside the military.
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#50 Ieqo

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 07:13 PM

How about a bounty hunter?


There is a Bounty Hunter class in RM, though IIRC they are fairly unimpressive.
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#51 LightPagoda

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 08:30 PM

A "good" assassin has to really be doing it for the cause with the money being a nice bonus that lets him do the work for him to actually be good in my mind. The primary motivation has to be removing evil, which makes him more an extreme vigilante rather than technically assassin. The big problem in party dynamic comes up when the "assassin's" ends justify the means runs up against more moderate philosophies. It is possible to do, but requires out of character agreements up front on how the party will act as a group and generally isnt considered worth the extra trouble. You might see if you will be allowed to play a character who uses assassin style skills, but is mentally a bounty hunter who is willing to take on the dead or alive bounties as much as the alive bounties. That can still cause some problems if the character is motivated only by money and others in the group have moral motivations or quests they want completed. My current Pathfinder/Ptolus group has a player playing a lawful evil gunslinger who is employed as a bounty hunter. We get around differences in motivation by having him employed by the core group, at his player's suggestion. That way his darker impulses dont *usually* derail the plot, though he has come close.
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#52 forgedchaos

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 08:49 PM

Honestly Gilbert the best thing to do would be to talk to Hal and Lindsay and find out what the campaign will be like and then discuss what kinda roll would be best for each of you want to take. Honestly what everyone has been saying about party dynamic is true. you need to mesh well within the party for things to flow smoothly and for the game itself to be fun. You had it well in CC even if Darius and Mor'kil did rub off on each other a bit.

Secondly a good idea for you would be to either listen to some of the old RM podcasts ( they are very entertaining) or else talk to Hal about the types of characters that were in the game and how they worked together. People seem to be forgetting that Goggles played an Assassin (of sorts) and it worked out ok.

Jason
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#53 MorkilRocks

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 09:31 PM

Thank you all for the suggestions and the definitions. I think this is one of the cases where I am once agin approaching the subject from the real world. The example of a "good assassin" was Reno from The Professional. I know that is a lame example, but it's what I got. The way I see it, is that an assassin can be a good/moral person who just happens to kill people for a living. If the team needed money, the assassin could got to the seedy bar and get a job to help with the expenses. To him, it is just his avocation, nothing more. It is a primarily solo job (no jokes Pencil-Monkey) but the assassin's skill set could come into play during the corse of the adventure. I get what you guys are saying about team dynamic, but how much homogenization does a team need? In CC, Mor'kil has the fire power, so in RM I thought I could explore a different skill set. I so do not want to be a fighter, but I like the idea of being trained at something besides "stand in the back" spell caster. That's why I thought of a mix. I'll continue to explore the options. Oh and Jason, both Hal and Lindsay suggested that I post these topics to get feedback. I really do appreciate all of the knowledge and advice I am getting. Thanks G :D
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#54 Ieqo

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 10:55 PM

I get what you guys are saying about team dynamic, but how much homogenization does a team need?


Just enough that they'll work together toward the (same) goal, without spending too much time arguing ethics and/or actively screwing over one another. You think that doesn't happen with mature roleplayers? I would point out the whole "breaking into the mansion" episode in Banewarrens. There was not a single hack roleplayer at the table, and yet the party was divided against itself along alignment lines, even to the point of the one half trying to get the other half caught by the evil baddies.

It doesn't even have to be an in-game 'homogenization' (I'll take issue with that another time); a social contract among the players that they'll "back the play" works just as well...as long as they actually do it.
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#55 MelkiorWhiteblade

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 01:21 AM

I have two examples from 'gamer' culture that might appeal and make the 'assassin' idea work.

1-Final Fantasy 8. SeeD is contracted to assassinate the sorceress. Without dwelling on the specifics, a scenario where someone is trained to be capable of assassination in the course of their job duties could definitely work. SeeD was more like special forces though so that might be different than your classic 'someone paid to kill people' assassin.

2-Artemis Enteri. (Yes I know some people really hate R.A. Salvatore. Sometimes I do too :wink:). He's definitely at the top of his game, but when confronted with his nemesis, he realizes that despite all his skill and dedication to his craft that something is missing. This falls under the reformed assassin I think, or at least assassin in transition.

Ieqo, Lockhart et al have some great advice too.

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#56 LightPagoda

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 01:58 AM

I get what you guys are saying about team dynamic, but how much homogenization does a team need?


Just enough that they'll work together toward the (same) goal, without spending too much time arguing ethics and/or actively screwing over one another. You think that doesn't happen with mature roleplayers? I would point out the whole "breaking into the mansion" episode in Banewarrens. There was not a single hack roleplayer at the table, and yet the party was divided against itself along alignment lines, even to the point of the one half trying to get the other half caught by the evil baddies.

It doesn't even have to be an in-game 'homogenization' (I'll take issue with that another time); a social contract among the players that they'll "back the play" works just as well...as long as they actually do it.



Ive listened to games where the group had agreed ahead of time that nobody was allowed to go off solo, any activity had to have at least 2 players involved and a majority vote on a course of action was followed by the group. This kept the group working mostly together towards the same ends, though there was inevitably some griping from the one guy who wanted to go a different way, or upset because nobody else in the group was willing to go with him on an errand he really wanted to do. All out of game agreements on how to choose group goals and direction that any group of characters without a built in reason to stay together might benefit from. Now that I'm thinking of it, the group template that Fear the Boot talks about might come in handy. Work out very good reasons why each of the characters is involved with the others and why choose to stay together despite their differences. Agree on the character's roles in the party not just in combat, but also in terms of personality and what directions they are going to push the group.
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#57 PrestoJeff

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 03:25 PM

My suggestion of "bounty hunter" was based mostly on Clint's "Man with No Name" character from the Sergio Leone movies "A Fistful of Dollars", "For A Few Dollars More", and "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly". Although his most superficial motivation is "kill for money", he is still a sympathetic character even though he tries to kill Tuco by leaving him in the desert.
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#58 Vaeron

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 04:32 PM

No love for Assassin's Creed? Altair, and especially Ezio, were both assassins and good guys. They just happened to kill people - and not even for money - to preserve their code and stop the Templars from destabilizing civilization with their schemes. Not that it ever seems to work in the long run, but they do try.

I'm pretty sure the previous RM group included a Nightblade... If his character was representative, I'd advise against going down that route. His signature achievement was getting himself horribly mutated.
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#59 Ieqo

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 05:13 PM

I'm pretty sure the previous RM group included a Nightblade... If his character was representative, I'd advise against going down that route. His signature achievement was getting himself horribly mutated.


Malik suffered from the lack of focus I warned against previously. The mutilation (birth of the Albatrosity) was entirely the player's idea.
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#60 Ashiruni

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 06:30 PM

well, not just that, he also suffered from more than a few poor rolls. He started the game with no spell lists, which is pretty difficult, even for a semi. The lack of focus undoubtedly made that a bit worse, but still...

And then he also started the game with no adder (not that it mattered at the time, but eventually it had an effect), and he made a pretty poor choice as far as armor goes.
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