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Thunderspire Labyrinth Session 8 (DnD Session 19)


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#21 MadMac

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 04:55 PM

Calder has +2 Plate armor and a shield


I did figure that into my calculation to get 24. How much are you adding for level?

(I don't really think this was mega important or anything, I just remember listening to the pod cast and not thinking it was possible at your level)
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#22 MadMac

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 07:49 PM

Ah, forgot to mention. The idea of having us come up with catch phrases for all the characters is a good one. I'd get the ball rolling, but my brain isn't working at the moment...
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#23 James

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 09:19 PM

I don't know what the exact numbers are Hal keeps the character sheets between games

It should be.

10+10 (+2 plate)+2 (1/2 level)+2 (shield)+1 (amulet of protection +1)
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#24 Snappyapple

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 09:21 PM

That would be the problem then, the defense bonus from the amulets don't add to AC.
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#25 Hal

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 09:47 PM

24 is still pretty respectable :)

I only keep character sheets as I know how bad players are at losing them or forgetting to bring them to game :P

Finished painting the bedroom! Thankfully!

Hands are sore and back is sore! heading to the shower!

Hal :hal:
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#26 BaronBytes

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 09:23 AM

Just to add to the doughnut rant. Tim Horton's doughnuts are even better than Krispy Kreme's.
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#27 MelkiorWhiteblade

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 10:23 AM

I only keep character sheets as I know how bad players are at losing them or forgetting to bring them to game :P


Amen! Every now and then they forget dice too...
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#28 James

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 10:26 AM

"That would be the problem then, the defense bonus from the amulets don't add to AC."

Which is why after playing 4E since it came out, using official WOTC adventure modules, and through five levels that I came to the following two conclusions.

1. WOTC is getting no more of my money for 4e products

2. 4e sucks ass
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#29 Dungnmaster001

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 10:34 AM

"That would be the problem then, the defense bonus from the amulets don't add to AC."

Which is why after playing 4E since it came out, using official WOTC adventure modules, and through five levels that I came to the following two conclusions.

1. WOTC is getting no more of my money for 4e products

2. 4e sucks ass


Really? Of all the things one can find wrong with 4e it was the amulets not adding to AC that pushed you over the top? You do realize that amulets add to the other 3 defenses right? AC too might be over kill.

hehe I'm just kiddin. I understand what you meant and it's not the first time I've heard it.

Honestly though I like 4e and feel it would be more fun than 3.5 for me I'm finding it hard to convert my 3.5 players to it.

In the end I think I'll have to take one of three approaches if I want to play 4e.

1. bribe my 3.5 players into playing 4th.
2. recruit players who never played 3.5 or earlier editions.
3. wait 10 years for the WotC Game Table to be finished (just in time for the announcement of 6th edition) and play online.
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#30 MelkiorWhiteblade

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 10:50 AM

Just my two cents:

I think that several gamers my age and older (28), when I was in high school and college I could afford books, and now I can't. Two of my gamers have jobs but live with their parents and are my age. They buy new books all the time, or at least they used to for 3.5.

They have a 4e players guide. If they really wanted to play 4e, I could probably run it for them, but they don't think it is really that great or an improvement over 3.5.
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#31 JoeGun

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 11:16 AM

Just to add to the doughnut rant. Tim Horton's doughnuts are even better than Krispy Kreme's.


You know I never really got the Krispy Kreme thing. I'll take a duncan donut ( or Doughnut ) over Krispy any day. Maybe I'm just the weird one.....
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#32 Merlin

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 11:26 AM

Hope the roof situation has cleared up. I've got a leakage issue on my roof (we knew it as bad for a while), but it turns out the roofers who give the cheapest quotes are also the most procrastinacious. That word is related to "animostic". :D
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#33 James

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 12:10 PM

"Really? Of all the things one can find wrong with 4e it was the amulets not adding to AC that pushed you over the top? You do realize that amulets add to the other 3 defenses right? AC too might be over kill."

No, it is not that.

Dungeons and Dragons HAD a convention that let you go outside the norms, something that let you break the rules of the physical universe, metaphorically speaking.

That thing was magic (and/or psionics)

Now, magic is not very magical in 4e. I should not be able to take a feat that is as good or better than it's magical equivalent.

I just long for the days when mages were shite until around 6-8th level when they began to become true badasses.

I mean look now at healing potions. Back in the day you drank one and regained HP. In 4e you drink one and you regain a set amount of HP AND spend a healing surge, but if you are all out of healing surges you are fucked. Where is the magic?

Calder has Gauntlets of Striking or some such shit. How many times have they been used? Not once. Because to gain any use out of the gauntlets you have to make a basic melee attack. Do you get to use any of your gee-whiz powers/spell/talents/whatever and gain a magical bonus? Fuck no. If you are willing to make (mostly) your weakest possible attack (Basic melee attack) you gain the magical bonus. However, while wearing the SAME gloves you decide to use a better power (mighty smite) you don't get the magical bonus. So, where is the magic exactly?

Also what's up with the daily powers? Really? I mean is this combat the last combat of the day? Should I use my daily now or risk a party death? But, if I use it now what if I need to use it later in the day to save myself?
What if we are surprised during the night before I have fully rested and I need to use that daily power but I can't, because I used it when I was in the shit earlier? Does a ranger somehow forget how to do some whizbang shit with his bow after using a particular daily power?

In trying to make all things equal they removed the uniqueness of the things I loved about D&D.

If you were a cleric in 3.5 and you felt that your character was overshadowed because the fighter was better than you or the rogue was more skillfull than you, then suck it up or make a different character.

So players were overran and downtrodden before and this equal harmony/balanced BS is what we are stuck with as a result. Frankly if you felt that you were not as valued a member of the party or didn't get you moment in the spotlight then you gaming persona was probably weak to begin with.

Anyway, it is lunch time and I just felt the need to rant. 4e is a fine system in and of itself. I just don't feel that it represents to me what D&D was all about.
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#34 Akira1121

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 04:00 PM

Time Out!!!!!! I would have to disagree on some of these points your making James. I actually enjoy 4th edition cause everyone can get into the spotlight at one time or another. Just like any other sytem out there you need to learn how to utilize your character at it is drawn up for you just like we do in star wars , in 3.5e, rolemaster and especially in warhammer.

3.5 edition is over run with character classes and races to even think about. It has become a power hungery system that can be broken very easily by players. You talk about when to use daily powers but wouldn't that be like a caster in 3.5 deciding on what spell to use and when to use the spell before it is lost for the day. You cast a fireball 3.5 then you have to wait a day to memerize it. What are you talking about? Do you have short term memory or something? You just cast the fucker and your telling me you forgot how to cast it again? That is the same argument you are giving daily powers in 4th ed. To me that is just being Bias. 3.5 you can run out of spells where in 4th ed you still can cast your at will spells or encounter spells. You are comparing an old confortable pair of shoes to brand new pair of shoes.

Dungeons and Dragons and every other system out there has one main purpose for me and that is to ROLEPLAY, not ROLLPLAY. Anyone can ROLLPLAY a character in 3.5 but not one power hungery person that picks the oddest classes races know how to ROLEPLAY the character. If you told people that they could only use only the core books of 3.5 would they truly want to jump at the chance. Unless they are true ROLEPLAYERS I would say no. That is why I like the groups in the recording sessions cause they are ROLEPLAYERS. I want to interact with people not interact with dice.

I mean look now at healing potions. Back in the day you drank one and regained HP. In 4e you drink one and you regain a set amount of HP AND spend a healing surge, but if you are all out of healing surges you are fucked. Where is the magic?


You drink a potion in 3.5 and roll a 1 you get one fucking hit point that totally sucks. You better go kill the person who made that potion. You drink a potion in 4th edition you know exactly what your getting. And I have yet to see anyone run out of healing surges. I see every class with some sort of magic with healing surges so to say where is the magic it's all over the place and in every character to some degree.

I have to go for now and thanks for listening to my 18 1/2 cents. :D
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#35 HisDivineShadow

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 05:16 PM

Yeah, I did find 3rd ed to be too munchkiny for my tastes.

I actually find 4th ed more spiritually akin to 2nd ed, which suits me fine. :)
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#36 Snappyapple

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 06:43 PM

I think one of James' point about magic is that it no longer feels as 'extraordinary' as before because all wizard/warlock/cleric powers are described and work in nearly the same way as say a rangers', instead of having a separate spellcasting system as the editions before had. The feeling of homogeneity that comes from 'balancing' the classes is one that I agree with.

Potions are meant to be used in-battle, as everyone can spend as many healing surges as they want after a short rest (I'll leave the realism of that out of debate). The effect that it takes a healing surge could be that it's a catalyst to accelerate your own recovery, and thus takes a toll on you, which is closer to the view some people would've preferred in 3e for healing. The point about how healing potions only recover a set amount of HP is a trivial concern, in my opinion. There's enough randomness in damage that I personally don't require in healing, unless I really enjoyed the sensation of extraordinary (and much-less-than-extraordinary) rolls of heals.

Calder's Bracers of Mighty Striking (I believe this is what James is referring to) is supposed to work that way, it is a very low level magical item. Most melee PCs probably won't get much use out of these bracers, even the higher level versions, beyond the heroic tier unless they needed to make melee basic attacks a lot such as with charges or from the warlord's powers. If the damage bonus applied to all melee attacks, then it'd be worth a lot more. Coincidentally, such an item exists in the Adventurer's Vault supplement (Iron Armbands of Power), and it's 4 levels higher than the Player's Handbook bracers in all versions. Items are priced on how much their abilities are worth, and some have decent effects only in circumstancial situations, and that makes them seem useless. They've existed in past editions, they still exist now.

About daily powers, I think Akira1121 pointed things out very well. Besides, we don't argue in action or superhero movies why the hero doesn't pull out his most powerful moves all the time, right? The hero pulls out incredible moves and beats the odds in a tigh spot, noone questions how many of those he has in reserve. And as daily powers are a part of all character classes, 4e also provides more ways for these powers to be recovered than spells could've been in 3e.

While there are ton of things that were not delivered by 4e or could've been improved upon, the above is my opinion on the points given.
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#37 MadMac

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Posted 18 December 2008 - 07:57 PM

I actually find 4th ed more spiritually akin to 2nd ed, which suits me fine.


As someone who played a lot of 2nd edition back in the day, I have to agree.

The amulet of protection is a direct analogue to the 3rd edition Cloak of Resistance, a boring but essential item that gave a bonus to saving throws. The 4th edition approach is to keep the same item but make several small variations with their own minor powers, so you don't have an entire party with the exact same magic items. I'd rather get rid of the required item altogether, but it's still an improvement for me.

Flavor is an interesting thing. I actually find 4th edition magic more interesting and flavorful to me than 3rd edition, particularly because of things like Rituals, At will and encounter powers, and every spellcasting class (and Monsters!) having their own little batch of themed powers instead of drawing from the same monster list of spells in the back of the PHB.

The way healing was changed is a big one for me. Nothing kills immersion for me (even in video games) quite like having heroes with effectively unlimited HP's because they purchase Healing Potions by the crate. Sucking down miraculous healing elixers like some sort of fantasy gatorade always seemed bizarre to me. To each their own, I suppose.
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#38 eformo

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 12:08 AM

Sucking down miraculous healing elixers like some sort of fantasy gatorade always seemed bizarre to me. To each their own, I suppose.


Yeah!! Bring back the potion interaction tables!!!

In seriousness though - magic was more mysterious in the past, not something that came with having a name (i.e. not being a minion/L0 NPC) Magic just isn't... well... magical in this system. It's mundane, routine.

I totally understand what James is saying about powers - there was a game world rationale for why the mage could only cast the spell once per slot he'd devoted to it. But why is it that when the Warlord encourages you during a fight, the first two times your wounds mysteriously disappear but the third time it does nothing? Or why would the fact that he already encouraged himself and encouraged the fighter make his words less encouraging to you? And for God's sake, how can an encouraging word ever repair the fact that someone stuck a broadsword through your throat?

The problem here is that every character is designed based on their ROLLPLAYING - i.e. having an identical number of abilities that produce an amount of combat damage determined by a mathematical forumula. In previous editions the character was defined by ROLEPLAYING - how does this character interact with and control the world that surronds him?

Some people would beseech the gods to make things happen - some just used their axes to beat the tar out of the things they saw in order to subdue them. It was about who the character was, how the saw the world, how they dealt with the world, the training that they had. Now the character is designed to make sure that the are not better in a fight than any of the others.

It's a game system like any other, but the system does not mesh with the setting well at all. The original system had some awful rules mechanics, because they were trying to simulate how the skill worked. The d20 system made things a little more abstract, trying to simplify the way that outcomes were determined and to a degree it was successful at that. This reason that I dislike this system is that the characters are designed entirely around combat. There's a combat system with a world draped about it like a giant circle cloak - it doesn't fit. 2e (and to some extent 3e) felt like a world with a system created to adjudicate characters actions in that world.

The design team stood the whole process on it's head - tried to make apples = oranges and make a warlock and an archer interchangable. Rather than take the recognizable worlds that were crafted over 30 years and build a new system for adjudicating character actions in that world, they chose to build a brand new system with no regard for the world at all and then they slapped a few tattered pieces of the old world on their new combat system.

I think I may be up to 40 cents in volume, but am afraid I'm below 2 cents in value to this rant. Anyway, that's why our group quit playing 4e and is going back to either 3.5 or 2e (TBD)
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#39 Telemergion

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 12:27 AM

I think there are many valid points on both sides of the debate. However, the one I want to focus on involves Calder's aforementioned bracers.

Indeed, there are very few times when you'll find yourself using a basic melee attack, especially as a human when you have a large pool of At-Wills (What is your third one anyways, James? I only recall Holy and Bolstering). The bracers really only benefit those who regularly Charge into battle or get Opportunity attacks. As a paladin, you probably won't get as much use out of them as others, notably a fighter, but that doesn't make the item bad.

If you really don't want them, sell them to David for full price, then turn around and force Goggles to enchant you something better. At lvl 2 there are a couple things in the Vault like the Darkleaf Shield which would temporarily give you that extra point of AC you wish your necklace did.
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#40 Akira1121

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 04:00 AM

The way I look at it is every system has it's own world. We, the roleplayers are the ones who need to design it. When I play rolemaster I have to play the world around that combat sytem. When I play rifts I have to change for that world. So, why is it that when WOTC changes the edition it has to be the same world. There are millions of DND worlds out there built around 3.5 combat system that are homebrewed. In 4 or 5 years there will be millions of homebrew worlds for 4th edition. For a gaming system to survive is for players to create their own world around the combat system. Just like the world changes with each generation. This genereation we live in now is built around the "combat system" of technology. We have the choice of living in previous generations but it will be harder for us to understand the new generation.

It comes around to the same thing for me. ROLLPLAYING vs ROLEPLAYING. It's like comparing Grogon in 3.5 vs Galidril in 4th vs Tanz in rolemaster. Each are ROLLPLAYED around different combat systems but each are defined on their ROLEPLAY. We can all argue the good and the bad of each system out there and what we are individually comfortable with but in the end the enjoyment and fun comes from the defining of your character. Grogon was a dumb fighter that never minded getting dirty. Hell he sold manuer before adventuring. Galidril is the opposite. A smart, good looking elf that hates to get dirty. Then you have Tanz an elf cursed with a power of healing that he hates with a passion but deals with it for the parties sake even though he whines just a little bit. :lol: It's all up to you as individuals to decide whats more important in the game systems you prefer. Is it Roleplaying or Rollplaying.

Say good night Grogon

Grogon: Goodnight Grogon
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