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How broken are you?


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#81 Phneri

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 04:52 PM

Haven't gotten to play with this one yet, but while looking at the defensive fighting rules I found something far too broken to not put up here.

Consider the duelist prestige class. Yes, the duelist. Like a monk, but with fewer AC bonuses at the beginning.

We're going to take a halfling, and go 6 levels of fighter then into the duelist prestige class. Why, you ask? Well, primarily, the pure joy to be had for duelist level 7.

Level 7 allows a duelist to get a +1 dodge modifier/level of duelist in addition to other bonuses when fighting defensively. While wearing no armor and not using a shield.

A halfling dex-monkey at level 13, let's assume 22 dex and 16 int if we're min-maxing a bit for those defensive stats. Normal AC from duelist levels is currently 20 (10, +6 dex, +3 int mod, +1 being a halfling).

our 7 stacks with the +3 bonus from fighting defensively (tumble ranks add a lovely bonus here, and you've had many levels and lots of skill points). to give AC 30. Ah, but we're not finished quite yet.

Throw in a broad-bladed short sword (complete adventurer exotic weapon) for another +2 when fighting defensively for 32 AC. And a dodge target makes 33.

That's 33 AC with no armor/equipment bonuses and with no armor check penalties. Throw in some bracers of armor, a ring of protection, headband of intellect, dex item, etc. and we're pushing 40 easy. With 13 levels of d10 hit points + con to back it up.

But what about damage output, you ask? After all, this is a halfling.

Yes, a halfling with weapon specialization, who can take advantage of the deadly defense (complete scoundrel) feat for an extra d6 damage, will likely have a very magical weapon, and will have another d6 from 7 levels of duelist.

So at level 13 we're hitting for 1d4 +2d6 +strength +specialization (fighter levels) +weapon enchantment. With weapon finesse it's a baseline +15/+10/+5 to hit with defensive fighting, before weapon focus/enchantments.

Not a bad alternative to the platemail-swaddled warrior. I almost never see the defensive fighting rules used, and it saddens me when it can be home to so much cheese.
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#82 MelkiorWhiteblade

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 05:19 PM

Level 7 allows a duelist to get a +1 dodge modifier/level of duelist in addition to other bonuses when fighting defensively. While wearing no armor and not using a shield.


Per level of duelist. He only has one level of duelist and six levels of fighter. He can only add +1 dodge bonus to his AC. Also, it's limited by their intelligence. In other words, there are two caps for one bonus. Either int bonus or level. The highest bonus said duelist could get would be 3, and only then at level 3 or higher.

It doesn't work out well. AC 30 at level 10 is good, but based on wealth per levels, a level 10 armor wearer could buy plenty of +2 AC items and armor. 4000 gp per shield or armor, 8000 per ring or amulet. Plate Mail and a light shield get you 20, so an additional 8 ac (armor, shield, ring, and amulet) and you're at 28. About 50,000gp at level 10, so about half of that to armor, and the other half to a good weapon, and your set.
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#83 Phneri

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 11:26 PM

Level 7 allows a duelist to get a +1 dodge modifier/level of duelist in addition to other bonuses when fighting defensively. While wearing no armor and not using a shield.


Per level of duelist. He only has one level of duelist and six levels of fighter. He can only add +1 dodge bonus to his AC. Also, it's limited by their intelligence. In other words, there are two caps for one bonus. Either int bonus or level. The highest bonus said duelist could get would be 3, and only then at level 3 or higher.


You're missing the defensive fighting Melkior.

Level 7 of duelist (level 13 character) allows the duelist to add his entire duelist level as a dodge bonus to AC. On top of all other bonuses when fighting defensively. Per the elaborate parry feat.

This stacks with all other bonuses, which would stack with the +2 from the broad-bladed short sword and the +3 from fighting defensively with 5+ ranks in tumble.

Total of +12 to AC when fighting defensively, before any AC from dex/int bonus per duelist rules.

Now take the 22 dex, 16 int, and dodge with a halfling. 21 AC against a single target.

33 AC when fighting defensively. Now throw in a headband of intellect +2, gloves of dex +4, a ring of protection +2, and add a +2 armor enchantment to a shirt.

40 AC by level 13, with no weight and no check penalties. Touch AC is going to sit around 35, most likely. And while defensive fighting won't cover movement, the character will have had 7 levels of a class with tumble as a class skill and have +8 to AC when mobile, so we're only dropping to 36 AC total.

My apologies, I should have been clearer.
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#84 Daniel

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 01:51 AM

No, they just changed the definitions. Maxed broken characters are the norm, therefore the new broken is sub-optimised characters.

SO how gimped can you make your character before your own party either kills you or kicks you out to improve their odds?


I once made a socialite rogue with 4hp at character creation. Not surprisingly the need to talk my way out of challenges rather than just bash right on through was really fun and there is nothing like -2 attack bonus to make combat a challenge.

Danny
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#85 MelkiorWhiteblade

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 09:32 AM

My apologies, I should have been clearer.

Ah, I understand now. Six levels of fighter, and 7 levels of duelist. Oh, suddenly duelist doesn't look as bad as my players say.
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#86 Balgin

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 07:32 PM

When was the last time you saw a level 1 character who could go toe-to-toe with an ogre and actually have a chance?


Ogre - no.
Hill Giant - yes.

I've done it before. It involved using combat expertise, defensive fighting modifier, dwarven combat modifier and standing at the end of his reach constantly taunting while the party cleric stood behind me (out of it's reach) ready to heal if it managed to land a blow and everyone else shot it to bits.

It had also failed it's save against the entangle spell otherwise the cleric would've had a much harder time of it. And hey, if it works with giants it ought to work with ogres too :).

No, they just changed the definitions. Maxed broken characters are the norm, therefore the new broken is sub-optimised characters.

SO how gimped can you make your character before your own party either kills you or kicks you out to improve their odds?


I once made a socialite rogue with 4hp at character creation. Not surprisingly the need to talk my way out of challenges rather than just bash right on through was really fun and there is nothing like -2 attack bonus to make combat a challenge.

Danny


Back in 2nd edition we once started anew campaign. I randomly rolled ability scores in order (3d6, none of this best of 4 and then assign where you want nonsense). By the end of the campaign I was the only original surviving party member and I only had 17hp at 14th level due to having strength 4 and constitution 7.

That was a very cunning, and very careful magic user.
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#87 Phneri

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 03:11 PM

My apologies, I should have been clearer.

Ah, I understand now. Six levels of fighter, and 7 levels of duelist. Oh, suddenly duelist doesn't look as bad as my players say.


With a halfling duelist using a rapier the stat block pretty much completely outclasses a Glabrezu (for a CR 13 beasty).

On another broken note: Warlocks.

Consider a level 2 character, 1 human warrior and 1 level of warlock. Hideous blow as the invocation (add eldritch blast damage to weapon attack).

Take exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain), weapon finesse (probably necessary with the stat division), and one free feat for whatever you want (weapon focus spiked chain?)

You now hit for 2d4+d6 damage with a solid attack bonus. At level 2. Regardless of flat-footed, etc. Continue the warlock for extra d6s every other level and some fantastic invocations. Imagine a chain fighter that's flying out of reach of bad guys. Or constantly invisible. Or both.

I'm building too many characters lately.
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#88 Balgin

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 09:15 PM

On another broken note: Warlocks.

Consider a level 2 character, 1 human warrior and 1 level of warlock. Hideous blow as the invocation (add eldritch blast damage to weapon attack).


There are somke very nasty Fighter/Warlock's out there. Most in medium armour (having taken the armoured caster feat once for medium, not a second time for heavy too). They then wade into melee and do full round atatcks or one big heavy attack. Is the invocation damage when added still magic damage? if so then that's an easy way around damage reduction for the broken class that should never have been published in the first place.

Remember that Hideous Blow is like True Strike. It needs to be done in the same round so you only get one attack in. You couldn't take a full attack and have one of them be the hideous blow one. Oh no :P.

Fighter/Warlock/Blackguard can be nasty (combining two touch atatcks as one) but most fighter/warlock's only take 2 or 3 levels of fighter.

A fighter/Warlock who takes the see in the darkness power, the darkness power, flying and invisibility can be one heck of a nasty mugger too.
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#89 Phneri

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 07:33 AM

Remember that Hideous Blow is like True Strike. It needs to be done in the same round so you only get one attack in. You couldn't take a full attack and have one of them be the hideous blow one. Oh no :P.


Yes, oh no, instead of a second attack at +1 the chain fighter 1/warlock 5 will have to deal with having only 1 attack at 2d4+3d6+str+weapon enchantment.

Every round, without need to rest.

Even better, use a ranger for your 1 level of mix-in and you can still wield the brokenness of the spiked chain, as well as getting favored enemies and access to stealthy skills. You can now sneak up and smack something for 2d4 + 3d6.

Now, the medium BAB and the need to keep 5 ability scores high does kind of balance this...yeah no it doesn't. But I'm still going to make one to revel in the absurdity.
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#90 Telemergion

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 09:33 AM

I like to mix my 3.5 warlocks with rogues. I'm too lazy to dig up my last build, I just remember that he was a huge jackass with 30 bluff at something ridiculous, like lvl 6.

Currently I am not broken but my MnM players sure are. I've got one guy who can summon a demon who instantly melts brains and another guy who had a 35% chance to do 30 damage when it's supposed to be capped at 20.
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#91 Phneri

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 02:52 PM

Well, one of the cheesiest games I ever played in ended recently.

One of the characters built a dragon shaman (PHB2). Among a number of absurd bonuses he could, at will, for limitless duration, either:

Give all allies +1 to damage

Allow fast healing 3 up to 50% hit points

Give some absurd skill bonus.

This only got worse as he leveled up. The fighter wasn't overly broken, though the cleric eventually went for sacred fist and became supremely ridiculous. Shortly in my warlock was vetoed for being too much. In the face of all the other absurdity present, I was a bit confused, and went with it, building: the monstrosity.

Orc (yes orc) barbarian4/Fighter2/Frenzied Berserker 2 (and many of you will begin to see the problem coming. Particularly if you listen to Rolemaster).

He took monkey grip and used a large-sized greataxe, doing 3d6 + str damage a shot. After frenzying he'd usually power attack (hitting 3 times a round for something insane like 3d6 +26, I forgot) and butcher everything in sight.

Everything was going well until I managed to crit and kill the bad guy (9d6+20 odd, I rolled well and the beasty failed his massive damage save) and then failed 7 will saves in a row to try an exit frenzy.

And proceeded to butcher everyone around me, who all fruitlessly tried to subdue the frothing lunatic. It didn't help that somehow the wizard with a level adjustment managed to be my closest target, and I beat him in initiative.

It really didn't help that the dragon thing continued to heal me with his aura.

And it really, truly didn't help that this had all occurred in a night-time ambush, when the other fighter was out of his plate armor and thus rendered very, very squishy.

So yeah, new module. Dealt in by our own cheese.
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#92 swj719

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 03:09 PM

Which is why the RM party has learned (and if they haven't they deserve death) to lay the fuck DOWN and play dead when the bashkar frenzies...
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