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#21 Qwaz

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 03:45 PM

Balgin, what class were you before prestiging? Figther?


Fighter with Whirlwind attack, combat reflex and hold the line :). That prestige class is the only reason I'd ever take the Toughness feat (most pointless feat ever).


Well hit points are important but the improved toughness feat (+1 hp per level) is the obvious way to go for a fighter since they start with the requisite +2 base fort and aren't hurting for hitpoints, at the lower levels or any other.

I've never been a fan of whirlwind attack. It always seemed to me that a feat who is most useful when you're utterly surrounded is suffering from an unavoidable flaw. Also since it's a full round action you sacrifice the ability to put the boot into one guy and kill him (therefore getting hit less later...etc). That said combining it with a two-handed weapon, improved disarm and a fighters focuses and strength would be a sight to see....everyone charges in and everyone loses their weapons :)
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#22 Balgin

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 05:10 PM

I've never been a fan of whirlwind attack.


It's situational.

Also since it's a full round action you sacrifice the ability to put the boot into one guy and kill him (therefore getting hit less later...etc).


Once again, it's situational. If you're surrounded buthave flanking friends attacking more than one of your foes it's worth helping everyone out a bit untill you can see who needs the more help and who doesn't.
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#23 Qwaz

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 05:32 PM

I've never been a fan of whirlwind attack.


It's situational.

Also since it's a full round action you sacrifice the ability to put the boot into one guy and kill him (therefore getting hit less later...etc).


Once again, it's situational. If you're surrounded buthave flanking friends attacking more than one of your foes it's worth helping everyone out a bit untill you can see who needs the more help and who doesn't.


Both very valid points and for a figther with more feats than god it's not a problem to pick up a feat here or there that won't always be in use (By that i mean compared with say weapon focus).
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#24 centauri

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 06:15 PM

I posted my analysis of Whirlwind Attack here. It's just below Balgin's earlier mention of his Dwarven Defender.

As I mention there, I haven't seen enough D&D to really know how effective Whirlwind Attack can be, but I think it's quite effective. This idea that it's "most effective when you're surrounded" oversimplifies it, as does the idea that concentrating on one foe out of many is always the best idea. But, that's not what this thread's about, so if you'd like to discuss it more, PM me or post in the linked thread above.
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#25 Qwaz

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 08:28 PM

As you so rightly mentioned, this maybe isn't where to discuss the finer points of each broken build. so how about a fresh one?

Half-Orc Ranger with 1 level of Barbarian.

The half-orc stats lend itself well to the barbarian, obviously...but don't hurt a ranger who's main skills and spells are also powered by wisdom. Handle Anima...etc takes a hit but a -1 means nothing in the long-run.

The 1 level of barbarian is the Half-Orc favoured class so there's no worrying about xp penalties. It gets the Full BAB, a good fort and you gain rage 1/day and fast movement. You also gain over the ranger Medium armor prof. This may not be instantly useful as a ranger needs to be lightly armored but a mithril breastplate (when you can get one) counts as light while protecting as medium...with plenty of room for any dex you may have.

The Ranger levels from there on will take care of illiteracy, grant you an animal companion and eventually spells. Before that though you'll get all the other benefits, most importantly...fighting style. With Rage available and the half-orcs strength Two-Weapon Fighting is the obvious choice to concentrate on.

Exotic Weapon Prof.: Bastard Sword
Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword
Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (Complete Adventurer)
Improved Critical: Bastard Sword
...etc

Make your main hand weapon speeding and at level twenty your base attacks are (off hand attacks are bold and the -2 for twf is taken into account)

18/18/18/13/13/8/8/3

7 attacks - All with bastard swords. Then add strength and feats and rage and magic and favoured enemy.

Your thoughts?
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#26 thad

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 02:28 AM

I don't really consider my character broken, but I have to admit that I am taking a human fighter just because there are 19 feats I want by the time I hit level 20 (we are starting at 15).

And note that I am sticking entirely to open source feats. None of this Exalted stuff or anything...
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#27 Dragonkin

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 03:09 AM

Speaking of feats and such, is there anywhere such a thing as proficiency with improvised weapons? I've been tinkering with a character concept where it'd fit somewhat, but a) I haven't seen anything and b) the very nature of improvised weapons would indicate otherwise.
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#28 Balgin

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 10:17 AM

I've never been a fan of whirlwind attack.


It's situational.

Also since it's a full round action you sacrifice the ability to put the boot into one guy and kill him (therefore getting hit less later...etc).


Once again, it's situational. If you're surrounded buthave flanking friends attacking more than one of your foes it's worth helping everyone out a bit untill you can see who needs the more help and who doesn't.


Both very valid points and for a figther with more feats than god it's not a problem to pick up a feat here or there that won't always be in use (By that i mean compared with say weapon focus).


Plus it used to be a prereq for the weaponmaster prestige class that completely disappeared in 3.5 to be replaced with a very different kind of weaponmaster that wasn't so broken :P.

Onto another "broken" character class combination:

Rogue/Barbarian. There's nothing anywhere in the rules that says you can't sneak attack whilst raging. Go stealth berserker!

And to exagerate the point, try a halfling rogue/barbarian/blackguard. Now that really was broken.

The other way to go is the Dwarven, Rogue, Barbarian, Ranger. So he's got flanking sneak attacks whenever he wants them, he goes berserk, dualwields and gets ranger hatred bonuses against his racialy hated foes.

So basicaly he's a trollslayer :P.

If you give him that tag team fighting feat it's nasty. That's the feat where you need multiple characters to have it but if they both flank the same creature they double the flanking bonus to +4. Now add in all the other bonuses and that's a pretty huge attack bonus (1 for ranger, 1 for dwarf, 4 for flanking + berserk stuff).

A much simpler "broken" character "build" is actualy the pregenerated fighter character from the Fighting Fantasy d20 adventures.

His feats look something like this:

Power Attack,
Dodge,
Cleave,
Great Cleave,
Blind Fighting,
Weapon Focus : Scimitar,
Weapon Specialisation: Scimitar,
Improved Sunder
Improved Critical: Scimitar

With his large strength of 18 and improved crit he has an obscene threat range and damage with that scimitar. He can also afford to take pretty hefty power attack bonuses (3 or 4 a round) and still almost garauntee a hit for d6+8 damage crit'ing on 15's.

Not bad for a 10th level fighter (before adding in any magic modifiers for magic equipment or spells). He seriously chews up monsters like nobody's business.
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#29 Qwaz

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 11:13 AM

Fighter feat really give you a whole bunch of wiggle room don't they :wink:

Speaking of feats and such, is there anywhere such a thing as proficiency with improvised weapons? I've been tinkering with a character concept where it'd fit somewhat, but a) I haven't seen anything and b) the very nature of improvised weapons would indicate otherwise.



Erm, I haven't got my source books down in london to flick through but from memory.

I seem to remeber a feat "Throw Anything" where you could throw anything pheasable as a weapon?

Melee-wise i'm drawing a blank for now feat wise (But i bet there is one), however, i think the drunken master prestige gets a weird ability allowing him to fight with random items? It gave Bottles and Chairs as an example but i don't think it was that restrictive.
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#30 woojitsu

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 12:38 PM

Rogue/Barbarian. There's nothing anywhere in the rules that says you can't sneak attack whilst raging. Go stealth berserker!


From description of Sneak Attack (emphasis mine):

...must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot...


To me, the wording of the ability implies that the rogue must consciously decide on a hit location in order to do extra sneak attack damage. I may be overthinking it, but I would, based on this interpretation, rule that Sneak Attack cannot be used while raging.
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#31 Qwaz

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 01:37 PM

No, that just refers to the fact you cannot sneak attack a target with concealment (In low-light, darkness or invisable target for example). To qualify for a sneak attack while raging the target must either be flanked (By you) or denied their dex. to their AC.
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#32 Balgin

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 02:06 PM

Yep, basicaly the stealth berserker goes "rarrrgh! I'm flanking you!"

I didn't say it should be allowed, just that nothing strictly prohibits it (going berserk just prohibits the use of certain int based skills and maybe a few other things). It's a hideous combination (and most GM's would disallow it for the sheer "now you're just being silly" factor but technicaly it's still allowed).

Fortunately I only did the stealth berserker once just to prove that it could be done (and shouldn't be done). It's not something I'd do on a regular basis.
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#33 Qwaz

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 06:26 PM

Yep, basicaly the stealth berserker goes "rarrrgh! I'm flanking you!"

I didn't say it should be allowed, just that nothing strictly prohibits it (going berserk just prohibits the use of certain int based skills and maybe a few other things). It's a hideous combination (and most GM's would disallow it for the sheer "now you're just being silly" factor but technicaly it's still allowed).

Fortunately I only did the stealth berserker once just to prove that it could be done (and shouldn't be done). It's not something I'd do on a regular basis.


I'm not so sure, i can picture a maladjusted youth sitting in a dark corner getting angrier and angrier until he get up and stabs someone over and over in the gut! Of course it's abusable but the idea's amusing :lol:
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#34 Balgin

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 07:55 PM

RuneQuest:

I played a human scholar who eventualy (sometime in his 30's) became accepted as a sorceror's apprentice and at the age of 58 or 59 actualy finished his apprenticeship (early!!).

In RQ the ammount of spells you can know is limited to 1 per point of intelligence. Sorcerors can aquire familiars. To do this you need to take an incomplete creature (animals have no int, undead have no con etc) and give it enough of your ability points to make it a "complete creature" (so the skeleton now has a constitution, is vulnerable to diseases, no longer undead etc). You can then use the creature's intelligence score to "know more spells".

My sorceror chose a horse (giving it some of his personality (PER) or something to make it complete). Then he transfered some spells into the horses INT. Okay, so he'd need to have the horse present to cast the spells but that wasn't a problem. The first spell he placed in the horse was a Speed Boost/Haste spell. Much more effective for quick getaways than casting it on himself :).
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#35 TheGlen

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 11:18 PM

I made a sverfneblin 7th lvl (adjusted from the actual level for the ECL) fighter for a friend in a PVP tourney once at Owlcon. First character I've ever had banned that I wasn't playing. (Aside from a test character in 7th Sea that got +14xp just for showing up). I forget the starting gold, but he ended up with AC bordering some where in the high 30's because of his +4 natural dodge, +3 dex, +8 mithral full plate (lets him use his dex bonus), and about +13 in magical bonuses. High natural magic resistance made him a pain to deal with wizards. You had to crit him just to hit.

Kid who used it got a special prize for cheesemeister, but Rokko Rockstorm never saw the light of day.
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#36 Qwaz

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Posted 05 August 2007 - 11:30 PM

I shudder to ask but rokko rockstorm?
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#37 Balgin

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 07:28 AM

Not a character but a trap. I can in no way hold responsibility for the creation of this trap. It won first place in a "who could create the deadliest trap" competition at a convention only because the most deadly one was disqualified for being too deadly!

The trap is as follows:

A 10' x 10' x 20' deep pit trap.

The lower half of the pit trap contains a gelatinous cube. So the falling character is going so fast that they are automaticaly engulfed by/sink into the gelatinous cube which begins digesting them.

The "too deadly" trap was based on the concept that a wall of force spell is one molecule thick, so it's invisible end on and will slice through anything that moves towards it.

So three end on walls of force on a greased sloping corridor with a door at the end that has a large exit sign over it..... That's just plain nasty.
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#38 Dragonkin

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 08:02 AM

Fighter feat really give you a whole bunch of wiggle room don't they :wink:

Speaking of feats and such, is there anywhere such a thing as proficiency with improvised weapons? I've been tinkering with a character concept where it'd fit somewhat, but a) I haven't seen anything and b) the very nature of improvised weapons would indicate otherwise.



Erm, I haven't got my source books down in london to flick through but from memory.

I seem to remeber a feat "Throw Anything" where you could throw anything pheasable as a weapon?

Melee-wise i'm drawing a blank for now feat wise (But i bet there is one), however, i think the drunken master prestige gets a weird ability allowing him to fight with random items? It gave Bottles and Chairs as an example but i don't think it was that restrictive.


Yeah, I've found the Throw Anything feat, which sadly doesn't apply to improvised weapons either - it allows you to throw any weapon that you have a proficiency with without a penalty, even if it doesn't have a range increment normally.

I'm going to have to look up the drunken master class, to see if that fits at all (chances are it does) - but I'm not sure if it quite fits this character. Still, I've found a workaround for the time being, I think... =)

Update: I looked at the Drunken Master prestige class in the Complete Warrior. And funnily enough - it gives you abilities to use improvised weapons to cause extra damage, and some other fancy things in some cases (like using long improvised weapons for reach, and such), but no where at all does it state that you get proficiency with the weapons to overcome the standard -4 penalty for using an improvised weapon.
At any rate, seeing as it's a prestige class and I can't just take one level of it for that ability, it really doesn't feel like for the character concept in question, so I'll just have to go with my workaround and take the -4 penalty the rest of the time. =)
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#39 TheGlen

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 10:54 AM

I shudder to ask but rokko rockstorm?


The svirfneblin in question. I told the kid to shout his battlecry (ROKKO ROCKSTORM ROCKS YOUR WORLD!!!) everytime he rolled an attack. Didn't matter, having an AC that bordered on Epic level was grounds for a veto.
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#40 roscoe

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Posted 06 August 2007 - 11:41 AM

My only first hand experience would be with Neverwinter Nights

Sorcerer/Paladin/Blackguard

Yeah the alignment change is a bastard, but the "add charisma bonus to armour" stays and in fact STACKS from both Paladin and Blackguard (and only one level of each required I believe)

Say hello to that +10AC with 20 Charisma (and with up to 30 charisma with the epic levels in it that's a whopping +20AC just from being a pretty standard sorcerer, add in auto-still spell so he can cast in full plate with no penalty and zap, you've got a pretty snazzy dude throwing out fireballs all over the show).

I think full buff AC (without any magical items to improve Charisma etc) ended up at 75, which is pretty ridiculous for a spell caster.

I think it was Improved expertise for +10AC, full plate + tower shield, Epic Mage Armour for +20AC, Epic Warding for 50/+20 damage reduction and improved invisibility for only 50% hit chance on top of all that.

Anyone managing to hit suffers 1d6+76 & 1d6+38 & 1d4+38 (acid/fire/sonic) damage from various spells.

Ah, badly hashed 3rd ed., where spells lasted hours :D

Only thing that even came close would be a half orc fighter/barbarian/red dragon disciple, able to get both epic damage reduction AND devastating critical for the OHKO chance

Of course, neither are even close to what you guys are coming up with, you're all so....broken

Edit: Doh, maths is hard, total AC fix'd
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